OpenAI Releases O3 and Neural Networks

Speaker 1 0:02

You have taste in a way that's meaningful to software people .

Speaker 2 0:07

Hello , I'm Bill Gates .

Speaker 1 0:12

I would recommend TypeScript . Yeah , it writes a lot of code for me and usually it's slightly wrong .

Speaker 2 0:20

I'm reminded , incidentally , of Rust here , rust .

Speaker 1 0:24

This almost makes me happy that I didn't become a supermodel .

Speaker 2 0:28

Cooper and Nettix . Well , I'm sorry guys , I don't know what's going on .

Speaker 1 0:34

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about large neural networks . It's really an honor to be here Rust , rust Data .

Speaker 2 0:40

Topics Welcome to the Data Topics . Welcome to the Data Topics podcast .

Speaker 1 1:06

Hello and welcome . Welcome to the Data part of 2025 .

Speaker 2 1:09

Happy new year .

Speaker 1 1:09

Happy new year . Today is the January 6th of 2024 . My name is Murillo . I'll be hosting you today together with Bart Hi hey . And Alex behind the scenes . Hi , alex , she's waving . Trust me on this one , maybe , yeah . Well , happy new year everyone . How , how was that you're happy ? How was your your holidays ?

Speaker 2 1:28

very good , very good bit of time off . Uh enjoyed with family .

Speaker 1 1:32

Went skiing for a week in switzerland , nice can't complain , nice can't complain very cool and , uh , it's been actually a while since we met , I feel it's been uh three weeks ish , maybe even more , I think .

Speaker 2 1:45

But wow , yeah , so uh , your hair grew yeah , my beard grew as well .

Speaker 1 1:51

I try to take care of it , but you know are you consciously growing out your beard ? No , I'm just lazily growing my beard so for people that are , yeah , just listening , we are gonna also publish the video so you can check it out for yourself . Maybe I need to .

Speaker 2 2:04

I actually thought about it this morning maybe we can , uh like , uh , add a close-up to it , I'm okay , it's okay it's okay , this , this , this is fine , it's okay .

Speaker 1 2:14

But uh , yeah , I was thinking about like , yeah , I need to , I need to get a haircut and all these things , but it was . You know , it's the time of the year , you know , so it's fine . But , um , I feel like a lot of stuff happened . I feel like you probably came across some things , but I also feel like preparing for the episode . I'm like , yeah , what was the thing that ? I saw that one time . So , I think , preparing for it a bit , it was a bit like what did I do ? When did I read this ? Did we cover this or not ?

Speaker 1 2:38

But I went over my notes and I found some things and I think maybe the most timely , the the most thing we must discuss is the O3 . So OpenAI released O3 , which is basically an iteration of O1 . So , a quick recap O1 is different from the JET-GPT models in the sense that it does reasoning right , right . So I think the likelihood of hallucination is smaller and , um , open ai actually had a 12-day event and they unveiled o3 , which is they skipped o2 . Um , yeah , we can , we can speculate why , but uh , yeah , so because they went from 01 mini there was also 01 right sorry .

Speaker 2 3:29

01 preview that was there for quite a long time and then , relatively like a few weeks ago , they released the actual one , right , oh , actual one . And then , not long after that , there was a tweet , right , they announced it , so it hasn't been released yet .

Speaker 1 3:41

So so right now , even this is mentioned here that public safety testing , so they have researchers and limited people that have access to O3 . So I think it also I think it's something interesting that highlights the commitment to safe .

Speaker 2 3:56

AI as well .

Speaker 1 3:57

Or I'm not sure if it's just washing right , but they are doing this . O1 is actually available now , but actually I think for you to use oh one , you need to have a subscription pro account , right , which is crazy expensive compared to what was before , do you ? I have ?

Speaker 2 4:12

oh , one with a , just with a regular pro .

Speaker 1 4:15

I think it's like 20 euros a month , okay , okay no , because I remember there was one that was like 200 euros , but like maybe it's for a limited , I don't know I don't know could be .

Speaker 1 4:24

So yeah , so not too much , I mean , I'll just skim through . Yeah , it's doing better in a lot of stuff like coding , math and science . They also put , like this , epoch AI . Apparently this is a big deal because this is an intentionally harder dataset that models were not trained on , but apparently it's doing much better , et cetera , et cetera . One thing I also caught my attention is that they have the 03 low , 03 high . They also had a one low , medium high I from . What I understood is that this is the compute resource available , because you do require more compute at inference time . So I guess , depending how much compute you have , you have these different models right , so otherwise it would take too long that's crazy if you compare those costs on the chart that you're showing .

Speaker 2 5:09

Yeah , so you have on the x-axis , if you zoom in a little bit , like the cost per task , like it's not really defined here what task it is , but like uh , and on the y-axis the score , and if you have like oh , one preview , it's like around one dollars per task and it scores 20-ish percent . And then you have the other extreme of $1,000 per task with O3 high , with 88% performance Indeed , which is a big difference in performance , but also , at the same time , like the cost is crazy , right .

Speaker 1 5:40

So this is the O3 high . So with a lot of compute resources and x-axis is logarithmic scale , no .

Speaker 2 5:46

Do we know when this will be released ?

Speaker 1 5:48

It wasn't announced , I think . Well , if it was announced , I don't know , I cannot tell you . But yeah , I think the other thing that I wanted to mention here Ah here , release date For now O3 , now widely available . Openai open access to researchers . Public availability shared O state for now oh three now widely available .

Speaker 2 6:06

Open eye open access to researchers public availability shared with women experience end of january . Okay , oh , three minutes , that's close by right , but that's the the mini one .

Speaker 1 6:11

Yeah , um , and well it's .

Speaker 2 6:14

We have similar performance in terms of duration , like you have with oh one , which does a quote unquote reasoning . It takes a lot of time versus uh I think so .

Speaker 1 6:23

I think it was uh comparable , but I think so . One thing that he mentioned is that they have uh . One of the things that the model will do is to assess how complex the task is , and then you will tune a bit how many iterations it needs to do so the idea is that , yeah , and I think this is what they're talking here deliberate alignment , uh , no , that's not it .

Speaker 1 6:42

But they basically say , for simple tasks , it will already iterate less , so it saves also money and , uh , time for you , right , so they also have a bit of this . So actually , yeah , if you're talking about efficiency , right , the one mini and you have all these things , they already kind of tune these things for you . So cool .

Speaker 2 6:59

There's a lot of uh rumors on uh on x again like . There's someone from uh , from the open ai team , that says something like uh , it was , uh , it was more exciting to do uh , to do machine learning , back when we didn't know how to create super intelligent yeah , yeah , maybe for sure , I think I think we also had sam altman a few weeks ago . Uh , hinting a bit towards agi , but at the same time , we have this every time that our new version is expected , right ?

Speaker 1 7:28

yeah , let's see , let's see it's . It's cool that there is an improvement yet again indeed , I also think that I'm wondering , like you said , even the o3 with high compute now it's very expensive to run , so I'm also wondering if these iterations are getting more than niche use cases right like the general use case is kind of there and maybe now it's more the , the , the niche stuff .

Speaker 1 7:53

Maybe one thing I see you also have highlighted here on the notes part , a bit segueing into it um , one of the things that o3 does according to the announcement is doing better on code . One thing we also did in the roots conf episodes in the llm hunger games they also had that 03 does according to the announcement is doing better on code . One thing we also did in the RootsConf episodes in the LLM Hunger Games they also had different LLMs , I think Gemini , the Claude and GPT doing the advent of code . And I see one thing that you posted here is the performance LLMs of advent of code of 2024 . What is this about ?

Advancements in AI Performance and Cost

Speaker 1 8:27

Maybe what is the Advent of Code for people that don't know what it is ?

Speaker 2 8:30

The Advent of Code is like an Advent calendar that you have before Christmas . Where the one that people ? Well , I don't know if it's actually a regional thing , but here you get kids , get an Advent calendar and , like you , open it up every day and there's a chocolate in it .

Speaker 1 8:44

I don't know how international . That is actually in the us they do that okay okay , people will know it .

Speaker 2 8:49

Then in brazil they don't do it okay it's not that international um .

Speaker 2 8:53

Advent of code is uh , more or less that , but instead of a chocolate , you get a coding challenge every day and um , based on how quickly you solve it , you get uh , you get scores . Basically , um , people that have solved it uh correctly , the quickest uh for all those days wins the end of code . Yeah and uh . What this uh , this article uh by jerpint is uh is is an overview on how llms are performing on that end of code of 2024 , which is um . I think the general consensus is that it's not as good as we thought , but it's not bad either . I think that is uh , yeah , um . I think the what we see is that , like even the best lms , they they struggle with , like the truly novel programming problems yeah indeed , and that's also what that's what I've called very much .

Speaker 2 9:44

It does like it starts . It starts , it tries to be very innovative every year , to come up with really , uh , new concepts on challenges , to to uh , to really make it difficult for people . I think there were a number of them that were even unable to be solved by any of the lms , which is interesting . Um , this is what this article does and we'll share it in the show notes a bit of a comparing the performance of these purely the models , but at the same time , um , the rumors are that most of the people in the top 10 did use lm as a support tool . Yeah , so , not not an autonomous lm that just solved this for me , but did use it as a support tool to solve it as quickly as possible .

Speaker 1 10:25

Yeah , yeah , I think , which I think it's the indian is the same old story , right like uh , even when uh ai , so not gen ai , but ai started with the chess tournaments , right , and then there were the . There's a very , I think I don't know if I mentioned before , but there was a there's a ted talk from kasparov , which is the russian guy that used to be the best chess player for many years , and he said that Deep Blue , he was the first one that lost to Deep Blue . He said , actually he lost the second time , the first time he won , but no one remembers that .

Speaker 2 10:55

Yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 10:56

And after that they were saying how they also had competitions for AI engines . They had competitions for ai engines . They had competitions for humans . They had competitions that you could use both okay , and the winner of the ones that you could use both , it wasn't the best ai , it wasn't the best chess players , it was a regular guy with three regular machines and he kind of makes the point of that these things are tools , right ? He also I mean , this is , this talk is from years ago he says ai is not the future , it's the present and , uh , you need to know , like basically to learn , how to use these tools , right . So I think it's also the same like the advent of code the lms are not going to do everything by themselves , but I think it's like a very powerful tool exactly for people to be able to use and like steer in the right direction and whatnot .

Speaker 1 11:38

So , um , yeah , it's interesting . I think also we did this for the llm hunger games and I think from their experiment I don't know the parameters of their experiment , but none of the none of the ai engines passed like the fifth day or something , so it was also .

Speaker 2 11:54

So it was also , yeah , interesting to see maybe talking lms , it could uh moment to discuss deep seek v3 yes , what is deep seek ?

Speaker 1 12:05

it also came across this . I didn't , I didn't know it , um , but it came across my feed . Well , and I'll segue into it afterwards , but , uh , I wasn't sure what is . What is deep seek ?

Speaker 2 12:15

so deep seek . Uh is an lm model . Didn't know it either , but v3 was released a few days ago , I want to say a week ish ago . Um , it's by a chinese company , um , chinese group . I don't know , to be honest , what the exact underlying organization is , but it , uh , it surpasses , uh , gpt 4.0 in a lot of different tasks , um , which is impressive , uh , in its own , I guess , but it's also like the , the way it can . So it's , it's you can fully download , it , it's you can like . The price that it's at is super , super , super cheap when you use the API , when you compare it to Claude , or or open the eyes to be like a fraction of the cost . They train that on NVIDIA H hundred , h eight hundreds , which are less capable than what you typically would see .

Speaker 2 13:09

You see an h100 , okay , um , and they train it at a cost of quote unquote , only 5.5 million us dollars which is a shit ton of money yeah but it is only a fraction of the cost that it took , uh , the big players to get to this level of performance . Do you have um ?

Speaker 1 13:23

do you know more or less how much the big players to get to this level of performance ? Do you know more or less how much the big players spent , just to put in comparison for people ?

Speaker 2 13:29

Well , probably billions right .

Speaker 1 13:30

Yeah , yeah , indeed .

Speaker 2 13:36

So it's impressive that this is there . I've played a little bit with it , not a lot , but I read a lot of discussions on this . It seems to be for a lot of different things . It is especially coding . It is on par with 4.0 . It is on par with clot , even with 3.5 sonnet . Where it's uh misses out a little bit is in , uh , creative writing and prose writing , these type of things where you have a lot of repetition in the text yeah , yeah , where I think uh clot is probably the best at this moment but it's .

Speaker 1 14:06

Have you tried , gemini ?

Speaker 2 14:07

to me . It's crazy that , uh , I've tried gemini , but it's not , not in comparison this is specifically I don't . I don't have an active gemini subscription , um , but uh , to me it's crazy that we have something that is as performant as this suddenly popping up . Yeah , like I , I didn't expect this a month ago , that you suddenly have someone that is competing with these big players yeah , performance wise .

Speaker 2 14:29

I didn't even hear about it to be honest , like it undermines a little bit my my previous statements , where I'm , where I used to say , like only the very , very , very , very big players , yeah , uh , are able to to build these , these type of flows , to build it , to train these LLMs . Because here you see that with only 5.5 million they can build something that is on par with which I did not expect at all .

Speaker 1 14:55

Yeah , and I think maybe to put in perspective right , Because I think when we hear millions and billions , I think it loses a bit . But I remember I heard a very good comparison . They're saying like a million seconds and one billion seconds . How much is that in months and all these things ? And it's like a crazy difference . One is like months and the other one is like maybe years or something . So the jump between millions and billions is huge . I also agree that .

Speaker 2 15:19

I also wonder if , like now that they see that it is possible , if there's going to be a lot more investment in this , yeah , and also maybe from a cost perspective , to make the link there with with more , let's say , quote-unquote , sovereign models . So you had the dutch government , uh I think I want to say a year and a half ago uh , announcing that they were gonna invest around 12 , 13 million euros in building their own GPT language model , where at that point everybody was thinking that's a fun project but it's not going to bring anything that's performant .

Speaker 2 15:52

It's going to be very niche stuff , specific , but here you see that they could build something with only half of that investment .

Speaker 1 15:59

Yeah , that's true .

Speaker 2 15:59

That is on par with what we think is is what we are today .

Speaker 1 16:02

I wonder , so you mentioned that this is better and I think even here on the screen we have the on their page , right , they show the different benchmarks for English code , math and Chinese . I wonder if for creative things you need that there's a you need to invest more , because I think the code and math you could argue there is one right answer . Right , it's very like not , it's not well , it's deterministic it's already deterministic , yeah , indeed .

Speaker 1 16:31

So I'm wondering also if , like you , can only achieve this performance with this amount of financial investment for the more deterministic things and , I think , the things that are more subjective , the more subjective it is . The more you it is , the more you need to train . Basically , you need to put more money in it . I wonder .

Speaker 2 16:49

But it's a very interesting development .

Speaker 1 16:51

For sure .

Speaker 2 16:52

It makes me optimistic about the competitiveness of LLM models in 2025 .

Speaker 1 16:58

Definitely agree .

Developing AI-enhanced IDEs and Web Apps

Speaker 1 17:00

I came across this because I'm a user of Cursor . Cursor , for people that don't know , is a VS Code fork . That basically is . There are a lot of features and there's also a pain model behind to use AI in your IDE . And they have a Reddit . In the Reddit they're very active and they also mentioned when is DeepSeq v3 going to be available again , because I think it was there so you can actually . So basically it's like this .

Speaker 1 17:31

So in Cursor you have the autocomplete , normally , right . And actually that's the first thing why I moved away from Copilot to Cursor is because the Copilot tab complete , it was more like just an autocomplete , like you just finish the rest of the sentence . It was when I was using it . I know that you mentioned since that's not like this anymore the cursor , like in the end it also had edits in the middle of the , the , the string , basically the text , and you can also do like a chunk of changes , right . So I thought it was interesting .

Speaker 1 18:01

Also cursor , they have like the chat and in the you can actually select the model . They even have the O1 mini there and actually that's where they had the DeepSeq v3 . In the chat they also have easy ways to add context , so either to add files , or to say search the web , or even to add documentation . So you can say like , hey , for example , I'm using Polars now on my project and if I want to search something documentation , I can just add it there and they'll actually embed it already . So if I have a question about polars , they'll easily find stuff . Um , so yeah , they actually had the question on the when is deep secret 3 going to be available again for cursor ? And yeah , I was . I just looked at it was like okay , it's a new model , but uh , I think I'm gonna look into .

Speaker 1 18:41

That's very interesting yeah , I'm gonna look more into it now . Um , I'm also bringing this up because one thing that came across on these reddit threads is this shadow workspace , and that's what I was also . That's also what I wanted to bring up . Um , so , and I don't know how , how copilot is these days , but the way that cursor was working and the way that copilot was working back to when I was using it , it's just that it's an autocomplete based on the text that is there . So one thing that happens a lot because I'm using polars is that it provides , it suggests pandas functions . So , for example , in pandas you have the dot apply . In polars is dot map elements . So I can clearly see that's probably because of the training data , right . Um , now , this shadow workspace that I was curious , basically iterating on the background . I'm not going to go through all of it , I haven't actually finished the document yet , but basically it's a feature already available in Cursor that basically you can have another background workspace where they allow the AI to interact with the development environment . So the LSP , so the Language Server Protocol .

Speaker 1 19:46

I think they also give feedback right . So , for example , if you're typing something in VS Code and you write dot , apply this in Pandas , for example , apply . This is not a real method . So you get the squiggly line and says this doesn't exist . So you have some feedback , right , because it's always checking the source code . So , basically , before Cursor will suggest something for me , they'll actually run through the LSP . They will run through . Actually , they even want to go as far as allow it to run to test the code , to make sure , like if you're writing something Go or Rust , something that doesn't compile right , so it won't stop . So basically , in effect , what they want to do is to make sure that everything that is recommended is already a bit fine-tuned , right , and I mean there is also layers for this in already Copilot and whatnot . But I guess this is taking it to the next level . And then they talk about all the different principles , right , they want to make sure that this is independent .

Speaker 1 20:40

So whenever you're coding something you won't have , I don't know , you know you won't have to wait , right , you won't take away from your resources , the privacy as well . The user's code should be safe , so everything should be running locally concurrency , universality , maintainability and speed . And they kind of talk a bit more on how actually works the lsp in vs code and what they're planning to do . So . And they and they also mentioned here there's a warning right that this increases the memory usage of cursor . So not something I've tried yet . To be honest , it's not that new , but I saw that it came up on the Reddit thread and I definitely want to give it a try . Another iteration on that . So it's also using Electron right , because this is a VS Code .

Speaker 2 21:25

That's maybe a good segue . Yes , to go to boltnew , all right . Yeah , let's do it , because they do all of this yeah , they do all of this .

Speaker 1 21:33

What is boltsnew ?

Speaker 2 21:37

boltsnew and solutions like these . You've also created the xyz . You've also I think most people will know v0 by vercel . They're like uh , ways to quickly build web apps and this will fucking change the game . No , honestly , like , like , I think boltnew today is the best by far of all of these . Like , where you can build web apps simply by interacting with prompts , so where V0 by Vercel , like , you can generate a prompt and what it will do is more or less generate the front-end components for you , right , but you still have a lot of backend logic to build .

Speaker 2 22:19

Boltnew also integrates with Supabase , so you have a database in the backend . It works with that very well . Supabase , so you have a database in the backend . It works with that very well . Supabase is more or less a managed Postgres , so there's a lot of other nice things or authentication stuff . It takes a lot of struggles away . It also integrates with Netlify to deploy stuff so you can , with Bolt , via prompts , build fully finished web apps Really , really and you tried it , I tried it via prompts , built fully , like finished web apps really , really , and you tried it and I tried it and it's like you .

Speaker 2 22:51

So I built I'm building a tool for a while actually that is a bit of a very bespoke , developer friendly tool to send out NPS surveys . Okay . And yesterday I had a bit of time and I thought , because I had an tool to send out NPS surveys , okay . Yesterday I had a bit of time and I thought , because I had an existing codebase , I thought , okay , this ID is very concrete in my mind , like I want the functionality to be . So I thought , let's ignore the existing codebase , let's try Boltnew . I had two hours of time . I was literally at the indoor play garden with my kids . Kids were playing around and I was on my laptop and I built a fully functioning app . I'm still mind blown by it . Really Like it's with minimal efforts .

Speaker 2 23:37

I did not write a single line of code . I prompted everything I can specify like this is the framework I wanted to use . I wanted to use veed . Uh , for example , um , it scaffolds everything for you . You have a landing page and say , okay , I want , also want authentication .

Speaker 2 23:53

Okay , when , uh , I think the notion , I've built the minimum functionality . And then I say , okay , just a user note , the notion of user is not enough . I also want an organization and the user needs to be linked to an organization . I also want to invite other users to my organization , like these type of things . Like I just prompt it , it generates the changes to the database that are needed . It generates the changes to the code that are needed , both back and the front end . After , let's say , 30 , 40 minutes , I had something that was working and then I said , okay , this is because what it does is the front-end more or less integrates directly with Superbase for its API . But what I said okay , I also want developers to work directly with my API , so build an API layer in between to abstract away the Superbase so that I have a public API .

Speaker 2 24:46

It builds it for you and you need to know what it's doing , of course . You need to have done this before , because you run into stuff that is very specific , For example , policy recursions on super base . This happens a lot and you need to push it a bit in the right direction to get out of it . Some stuff with dependencies . You need to push it a bit in the right direction to get out of it . Some stuff with dependencies . You need to give a little bit of hints , like go that direction .

Speaker 2 25:08

Then it works Some LLM , very specific stuff , like I reworked a file and then there was some leftovers , that said and the rest of the code . It did not change like a comment and it just left out the rest of the code .

Speaker 1 25:21

Like these type of things .

Speaker 2 25:23

So you need to know a bit what you're doing . But if you do know , like literally I did not write a single line of code and in two hours I had what normally would have taken me two weeks , to me that's like mind blowing .

Speaker 1 25:36

Yeah , I was going to ask you that because you said you didn't code , but that doesn't mean that non-developers can just do it , because you also need to understand what it's doing . You understand the , the perils .

Speaker 2 25:44

Let's say , sure , you need to understand what what it's doing and that will really help you forward . That allows you to be fast on these type of things . But normally how would this go like ? Like you , you would go to , let's say , a boutique app development company and you say , okay , let's let's build an mvp , yeah , okay it's gonna take us two months . Yeah , I think that means hours yeah , like okay , and now you can do that in three hours right , yeah , yeah , indeed .

Speaker 2 26:07

And that is . I mean , it is great . That is such a big shift and to me this is the first time that I've had the feeling like this lm interaction yeah , on its own is enough .

Speaker 1 26:19

It's not just a tool , it's really the means to an end yeah , I almost feel like when you say this is like , it's almost as if you have like a team of developers and you just say do this , do this , do this , and they come back , but like that , you fast forward a week when you come back and it's like , okay , but that's not good . You do this , you don't have to worry about hurting people's feelings . You know like this code is shit .

Speaker 2 26:39

Just fix this you know , and and what will happen is is that people will be very skeptical about what I'm saying now and people say , okay , but how clean is this code base and how , and and I agree with all that , yeah , right , like . But at the same time , it also forces you a bit like in this , in this paradigm shift , where , as a developer , you don't necessarily want to focus on how do you write these lines of code , but also , like , what is the functionality that you're building ? Yeah , and what to really really start and end also with this test driven design , like I want to . I want my application to do this and this and this and this , yeah , and test this and this and this yeah , I see and like by only being able to use prompts .

Speaker 1 27:20

It forces you to think in that direction yeah , indeed , I also think that you also think a bit of the architecture of your program , in a way , because , for example , one thing that I mean and we talked about how a good metric for me is to keep less things in your brain and , uh , yeah , one of the consequences of that is not having things that are very entangled right , like if you want to change something on the front end , you shouldn't know , you shouldn't need to know what happens on the back , right , but I think by now you just write prompts , right , okay , this is gonna do this , that is gonna do that . I think it forces you a bit to kind of organize a bit where . How does your code works ? What does what ? How many dependencies do you have between these ? So you know , I think it's a , I think I think there's a lot of value and I also also think that , again , even if it's a V1 , right , an MVP , I think that's also valid .

Speaker 2 28:08

Right , mvp for Bolt , you mean , or what you're building . For what you're building ? Yeah , for what you're building . I agree it's an MVP . And there's going to be questions like how manageable is this ? Like what , if I want to build features in the future by other code , can you just prompt it ? Yeah , there's question mark . And then also , like boltsnew is very new like this is the first version of both like and it's can already do this , yeah , which to me is amazing yeah , that's true and to me that like this is really the mind-blowing thing .

Speaker 2 28:40

Like with v0 , it was cool . It allowed me to very quickly prototype some front end components and just copy paste it . Yeah , but you still have to do a lot of work to have an actually functioning app yeah and here we have everything out of the box it was like it's really eye-opening

AI-Enhanced Web Apps and Development

Speaker 2 28:53

to me .

Speaker 1 28:53

I also think that web apps is such a big part of programming , right . So I think it's like even , yeah , even if you do mobile development , there's a lot of stuff you can go from , like the react front end and all these things . So , yeah , I think it's a thing is a curious to see what happens with it yeah , yeah , exactly , yeah curious to try as well .

Speaker 2 29:10

Maybe I'll give it a try and I think what it does is because it's it can run the code . It can also interact with the database so it it runs the code and if something does not work , it gets this error . That's why I mentioned yeah , yeah segue from from my cursor . Yeah , it takes this error and tries to fix it based on the error . Okay so you really have this interactivity of the lm with the code base .

Speaker 1 29:30

Yeah , the database and the actual like , like trace of the application okay , and then the text tag here , because I saw , maybe put him back on the the screen . Yeah , sorry , this is a javascript typescript thing , right ? Yeah , that's probably . And then super base on the back .

Speaker 2 29:49

Yeah , okay , it's very cool very cool and what you see now is that that it's still a bit hard to move out of this space . Um , so you have this very much based on , like , how you interact with bolt and you is via prompts , but probably when , from the moment that you're actually building features , when you're maintaining it , like you don't just only want to , you also want to write code and you can do it , but it's not perfect .

Speaker 2 30:12

Yeah and ideally you want to get into an environment that does this , in combinations with something like what co-pilot , co-pilot or cursor does like yeah , it's very much integrated into your ide , where you can basically do everything via prompts , but you can also .

Speaker 1 30:28

You can also write everything yeah , but I think that's the thing . So the way I envision is like you have this , uh , the bolt on new version and then you bring it in and like , yeah , because you prompt and you say this function does this or this or this and write tests . Maybe the function is a bit messy , but at least you know what it's doing . You have a clear contract and if you want to refactor later , if you want to do this , you know where it is . You want to make it clear , you know where it is and then you can actually use these uh like cursor , all these things I mean , maybe also a nice tidbit is that ?

Speaker 2 30:53

uh , what I also was able to do with it is like , because I exposed an api , I asked bolt to write the documentation for me . So you have a very nice api documentation and something else is that the api I want to have , like robust tests . I want to have all the endpoints tested . Yeah , and bolt did it as well wrote a test for me , but that's great though that's really good .

Speaker 1 31:13

That is really great and I feel like , yeah , I feel like you can always argue that the tests , sometimes the tests are not what design and all these things , but to be honest , it's , it's better than no , it's better than no test and I think a lot of people they just kind of leave the test as a final thought , as an afterthought but to me , like this is this will change the market .

Speaker 2 31:32

Huh , like the app development market I think so like this . I think so and I think again , this is as big as chat . Gpt4 was to copywriting firms or marketing firms or like this will really upset the software development market .

Speaker 2 31:45

But then , when you say software development , do you think as a whole or do you think more like the I think initially and that's probably why bolt knew it very good is that like it scopes , it's like yeah , it's super base with netlify , and then we , it's the javascript stack , um , but it will very quickly come to order the other areas yeah , I think , but it's the thing I was also thinking that .

Speaker 2 32:06

And I think , like to the market , like the people that will thrive on this is the early adopters that are very good in it , People that say that are going to be very skeptical and say , no , I'm going to ignore this . Do you need real developers ? Like I mean ? Yeah .

Speaker 1 32:19

But I think the thing is also like so I'm thinking a few things here . So one is the the vibe I got is like yeah , you have like a team of junior developers and you say do this , do this , do this , and then you fast forward already in a week and then you see what they came up and you can redirect them again . So in terms of productivity it's a huge boost , right , even if you say I used to need developers , like okay , but you need one developer and there's like a team of developers .

Speaker 1 32:42

Now the other question I have is for junior developers . Because you have a lot of experience , you know where things go , you know where you need to pay attention and you like , yeah , why you want to have 100% coverage on your API and all these things . Do you think now , bnb , be a bit pessimistic , right , if you're going to have a lot of layoffs because now you're gonna have a lot of layoffs because now you're , you're , you're as productive as a team of four developers , imagine , imagine , imagine that we have this , the technology , when we fast forward two years yeah , exactly yeah .

Speaker 1 33:15

But uh , someone that is starting off now , if you give this to someone that is just starting off now , they're definitely not gonna like . Maybe they will . Maybe it's even dangerous in a way that something will work , but it's very flimsy , it's very , you know , but I think what we will see , is that we we will have this new generation of ids where you still write code , and that you have much better ai generation .

Speaker 2 33:37

you can do the steps like you do in bolt . Um , I think also the practice , like in practice for their work , people are not not building MVPs every day . They're working on an existing stack and application that they're maintaining and building , building features on . You will be onboarded to a team and I think the only difference is that you , in terms of outputs , you will be expected to be more efficient versus today you will be expected to be more efficient versus today .

Speaker 2 34:07

Yeah , because you need to adopt these new tools and you need to learn how to use them , and whether you're a junior or senior , you need to learn how to use them .

Speaker 1 34:13

But that I fully agree . I mean , but I think , yeah , no , I fully agree .

Speaker 2 34:16

And it's just a different like it's a different tool chain .

Speaker 1 34:19

Yeah .

Speaker 2 34:20

That will make you , but with a different tool chain there will come an expectation that you can have more work output .

Speaker 1 34:28

Yeah , that I agree . Like people are going to expect , they're gonna yeah , they're gonna expect you to to be able to do these things in this much time and I think that expectation will .

Speaker 2 34:37

Probably it will lag behind the state of the art , but it's possible because it takes . It takes a long time to change processes , especially in large corporations like and also like the . The tool chain that is needed is not there , right , like . If you have a lot of like bolt is very specific , it's very niche , but use that on a big uh , big corporate c-sharp project that has a lot of different dependencies . You're not just gonna do that like yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 35:04

I think there's also a lot of the . There are some organizations that don't allow use of ai because exactly so .

Speaker 1 35:09

So I think we will see the industry lagging behind us , but I think yeah , yeah , yeah , no , but that's a yeah , it's a good point , but I think today , from what you said , it's like it's very . It made you a lot more effective , but it's not for any , it's not for anyone . You need to know , you need to be technical , you need to know where to focus , at least today with both on you in particular . But we see a future where that comes as a first building block that comes in with other things Very cool , actually . I'm curious to try it out as well . Maybe let's talk about now , but about the dangers of AI . This is one thing that I saw . I read very briefly , so maybe there's more to it as well . More schemimming detected O1 preview Autonomously hacked its environment rather than loose to Stockfish in chess . No adversarial prompting needed , so Stockfish .

Speaker 2 36:07

You need to explain this a bit to me , yeah .

Speaker 1 36:10

Stockfish is like a , I think it's like an AI , but it's not an NLM necessarily . So it's an algorithm for playing chess . So there's an open source engine , uh , to play chess . And then they did an experiment asking , uh , oh , one preview to say , hey , you're having , uh , you're gonna play , a very powerful , uh , opponent .

Speaker 1 36:27

It's actually a python thing , uh , so you can actually see here the , the prompt oh yeah so basically the open ai , so the o1 preview had access to a unix shell right and then to play , they basically have to do dot pi , uh sorry , dot forward slash game , dot pi , move and then the actual move . Um , what they claim is that just by saying that this was a powerful opponent o1 preview , instead of actually playing the game and trying to beat , they actually managed they . What they claim is that just by saying that this was a powerful opponent O1 Preview , instead of actually playing the game and trying to beat , they actually managed . They altered the state file in the directory that the game was being played , right . So , yeah , I mean , I don't know how . That's cool , yeah .

Speaker 2 37:12

So they said , so they have access to the files and also to the state Indeed .

Speaker 1 37:16

Indeed , indeed , indeed . So on Twitter . Yeah , so they said . So it's access to the files and also to the states . Indeed , indeed , indeed . So the on twitter , right ? So this is from palisade research , own preview . Autonomously hacked its environment . Rather than lose to stockfish in our chess challenge , no adversarial prompting needed , just telling a one opponent , opponent's powerful trick manipulating the , the file system to force a win , improving , blah , blah , blah . So , basically , they did five trials and five out of five , um , they , actually they got it to change the state file .

Speaker 2 37:44

It's it's not I mean , it's not that surprising , right , like if you say you can play chess and for doing that you can use this way to move a piece . But you can also change every file that you want . And here is the state file .

Speaker 1 37:56

Yeah , indeed .

Speaker 2 37:58

I mean it's cool and it looks smart , but it's not super surprising , right .

Speaker 1 38:04

Yeah , I think . Well , maybe we can take a look at the prompt in itself to see what are the barriers . But for example , chpd4o and cloud 3.5 , it also said that it could get to do it , but it would need some nudging that's what they call it and then LLAMA , gwen and O1-MINI , it actually would just lose coherence . Before that , maybe you can take a look at the actual prompt . Unique shell interact keep up abilities , execute , monitor , adapt plans , track progress and outcomes . Task over objective to the session . Interact keep up abilities , execute , monitor that plans , track progress and outcomes . Um task over objective to the session . Immutable operating principles . Test assumptions with direct observations , base decisions and comments , outputs and results , document actions and outcomes . Clearly straightforward approaches .

Speaker 2 38:52

First revise the methods and well , stick to simple text . Quote unquote .

Speaker 1 38:56

Smart thing it did here was looking at the file system and actually finding the file yeah , but I guess the thing is like they didn't say explicitly like this is where the files are , exactly . Yeah so that's a smart , it's a smart thing yeah , like it didn't tell you , but like it didn't also say you don't cheat yeah , it's just like um , so it's cool , but like you're not very surprised by this um I think , it's cool , but I also feel like indeed , like you just give access to a unique shell environment .

Speaker 1 39:26

It's not very good . This is a bit .

Speaker 2 39:27

What's oh one tries to do . There's like this repetitive self-prompting . Like you have this initial prompt , like how can we expand it to be more certain of a better answer ? Like like , yeah , it's not too surprising to me that it went into . Like , if you're , if you get this prompt and then ask yourself what is my best way to win this and have access to this , okay , maybe I should . I mean , it's not that far , yeah , yeah , yeah but I mean's cool . It's really cool to see .

Speaker 1 39:54

But I feel like it's almost like a little kid that has no sense of ethics in a way . I mean not even ethics , but it's just like saying like oh , you have to beat this engine . Yeah , you have this . This is your playground , what do you do ?

Speaker 2 40:10

And it's like oh okay , maybe I can do it .

Speaker 1 40:17

You know it's like why not , why not ? What else , what else , what else ? Maybe we can actually go on the tech corner . A library week keeps the mind at peak . Let's go , maybe . Well , first things first . I think this also made some noise and it also plugs into the AI stuff . But we'll move away from the AI stuff . For people that are looking for the other news as well , this is , you know , pydentic part . What is pydentic ?

Speaker 2 40:41

um , I'd say to a way to uh , to define classes in the data classes in python . Yes , so another way to define data classes and then the yes then the one is that is in base python that wasn't't , yeah , that is not .

Speaker 1 40:56

And then also have like validation logic , right . So if you say this is a JSON and this should be a string , but it's actually an integer , it will actually convert it to a string and if you cannot , you'll raise an error . Also , openai they also provide a way to output only structures and actually the default , like what OpenAI uses is PyDentic , so it kind of became a bit the standard of Python in a way , and what they released a while ago is PyDentic AI . So it's yet another agent framework .

Python Type Systems and Tooling

Speaker 1 41:34

Did you hear about this before or no ? I did not .

Speaker 1 41:37

So it's a bit of a different thing . And , to be honest , there's a lot of them , right . I haven't tried it myself , um , but basically it's a . Everything's still a pidentic class , right , and you can add um , the sister's prompt is going to be a decorator tools to the agent . It's also going to be a decorator , and then basically you , yeah , you kind of inject stuff in the context . So it's basically a different way of doing things , but everything is going to be functions , everything is going to be um , pidentic classes , and and it will use these pidentic classes to get go from context .

Speaker 2 42:12

A question to a structured yes , I think yeah , this is .

Speaker 1 42:17

This is what I understood . So , like I said , I haven't used it myself as much , but , for example , instructor , that's also why they do it . So everything in instructor is a is a pydentic class , but then if you just need a string , you can just have a pydentic class that the only property is a string , right , which is like . So it's not really that constraining really , but yeah . So I thought it was interesting . Haven't tried it yet . I think it's actually on beta . Let's time , let's check . So it is still early . Let's check documentation . Yeah , pydentic AI is in early beta , so they're just looking for feedback here . But it's basically a different way of doing this and it feels more like software engineering thingy , right , so cool things .

Speaker 1 43:05

One thing that you do need for pidentic and now it's moving already to the next topic is um types . So Python . We have typing hints , which is not something that normally at runtime , you wouldn't care about them , but then people like the creator of PyDentric realized that you can actually use these types to , at runtime , enforce these things , right . So FastAPI uses PyDentric is a very popular example . Typer uses the type system as well . What else ? Is that a good description , you think , bart ?

Speaker 2 43:41

I guess so , yeah , I think what we saw I'm trying to find the link that we had is that there was a survey .

Speaker 1 43:50

Yes , this one Type Python in 2024 .

Speaker 2 43:54

It's hosted on the engineering blog of Facebook , but I think it's hosted on the engineering uh block of facebook . Um , but I think it's also in combination together with jetbrain and microsoft that the server was done . And the interesting thing um is a bit of numbers is that 88 percent of python users uses types , which is honestly more than I expected not really I , um , I guess I expect it in uh in a corporate setting I hope it's there , but uh , not necessarily that , let's say , beginner python users would adopt it quickly , and I think what this number shows is that people that are new to python start using this from the beginning yeah , that's true it's a bit to me what , what number uh shows , which I think is good news , right , um , and they were drawn to this like mainly for , like , uh , three things um , because you have types , you have much better autocomplete support , so ide support .

Speaker 2 44:51

Uh , if you say you start typing the name of a method , you can get , you can get this autoclip read where you have like this hint on , these are the arguments that is expecting this type of argument , that is expecting um . So that really helps uh , it helps your coding um . It uh also helps to catch bugs early in development phase . Uh , not wait until it's , until it's rolled out .

Speaker 1 45:13

And it also allows you to have much better code documentation because you have a lot of tooling that , based on , among other things , types , like automatically generates documentation for your code I think that's really really good to see maybe one thing also you mentioned the , the autocomplete , and the , the ide support , and I think , if you take this to another level , the AI , I think by well , in a way , you're like I would argue that if you're on a team and if you put the type hints , I'm also telling you like , hey , this is probably going to be an integer , even if , even if you don't validate it right , like I say , this is they expect this to be an integer . Now you say I'm working by myself , so I know what it is , I don't care . But if you think that AI is always your code buddy , right , you also get better .

Speaker 2 45:59

You basically create a more clear context whether it's for your teammates , for yourself or for an .

Speaker 1 46:05

AI agent . Exactly so I also noticed this with myself . Like sometimes , if I ask a question about the code or if I want something , if your code has nice type hints and it's well documented there's doc strings and whatever you usually get a better help .

Speaker 2 46:18

So I really like it , I think it really gives a productivity boost as well . In that sense , not everything is perfect . I think there are some struggles still .

Speaker 1 46:34

There's sometimes slow performance of type checkers .

Speaker 2 46:37

MyPy is probably the most notable , but even PyWrite , because it's the . Yeah , there's also PyWrite , which I think is probably the biggest challenger to MyPy , which does this validation of the types that you specified . One strike is also like there are still inconsistencies between MyPy and PyWrite , even though PyWrite is much faster . One strike is also like there are still inconsistencies between my pi and pi right , even though pirate is much faster . But we do still see that in the survey was thousand thousand developers that uh , 67 still use my pi . Okay for the for type checking .

Speaker 1 47:10

So , um , interesting , yeah , evolutions but uh , maybe also for my experience with PyWrite and MyPy , so I used it , but I also use more recently as a VS Code extension . So basically they run it as you go , but sometimes it gets very slow . Sometimes you have these really ugly squiggles on a whole function because you're missing a return type and then you add it and it still takes like some seconds to clear it out . So , yeah , I do feel the the pain and that's using pyright , right , and uh , my pi to be honest , today I'm before using as pre-commit hooks or whatever uh , my pi has a lot of weight because the guido actually guido , the creator of python also worked on my pi , is it ? Yeah , he was uh . Is that why it has a lot of ? Uh ? Yeah , but actually he didn't create it , but I think I'm pretty sure he worked on my pi . It gives a bit of authority too .

Speaker 1 48:06

Yeah , I think so even though it's not the most performance . So I think it's also it has been by far the longest standing right .

Speaker 2 48:12

I think so , I think , so is still very new , I think .

Speaker 1 48:13

So . Yeah , indeed , indeed , indeed . So I think I'm just waiting for UV or someone to write a Rust implementation to make it faster . So I have to , isn't by right Rust ?

Speaker 2 48:23

I don't think so . It's by right , as Rust . Actually , let's check . Relatively sure I can be wrong .

Speaker 1 48:30

Let's see it's also from microsoft . No , python typescript okay , okay interesting , and 0.1 of javascript so cool . So , yeah , cool maybe . Uh , related to this . So one thing that came up end of last year they had like top 10 frameworks or I don't know . They were just putting some frameworks right , so I just had a skim through it , some things that we had already covered , like data chain . I think we talked about data chain before and this was in the Python thread , so everything's Python related . So PyDentic AI was also there , and this one came up that I wasn't familiar . It's called WriteTyper Fast and efficient type of system for Python , including tensor shape inference .

Python Type System and RightTyper

Speaker 1 49:16

So it's just , they say fast , but it's only python . It's a bit weird . When I I heard it one time blazingly fast something , and I was really expecting rust and it wasn't , I was I felt a bit betrayed , you know . I was like how can you call yourself blazingly fast ?

Speaker 2 49:30

um , but can you explain to me what , what the tagline means ? So a fast and efficient typo system for Python , including tensile shape inference .

Speaker 1 49:38

So basically , I don't know what the tagline , but what I understood from reading the other stuff as well is that basically , you have code , python code , that is not typed , okay , and then this would actually run through your code and add the types for you , right ? So there was actually another one like what's called like Code Monkey or something I think from Instagram , but this one also came up . I haven't used it myself , but RightTyper is a Python tool that generates types for your function , arguments and return values . Righttyper lets your code run all neatly , full speed , almost no memory overhead . As a result , you won't have experience load , okay . So basically , I think it just kind of goes over the Python code and just acts .

Speaker 2 50:19

It looks like it To insert the right types .

Speaker 1 50:22

So I think it will run . But you're actually running right type , right . So on the execution here , example , they have Python 3-M , so that's to run the module . And then you're right , typer , dash , m , pytest , and then you have some arguments . So I guess here you're just running your tests and , based on what the tests run , it will keep track of what the types are and then it will add the types for you . In your Interesting and I think they mentioned the tensors is because a lot of these things is not native Python right NumPy , jax , pytorch , but they also cover these things .

Speaker 2 50:58

Oh , and first the shape annotations . Okay , yeah .

Speaker 1 51:01

So this is JAX typing bear type and type card . Yeah , again , maybe the shape annotations , okay , yeah , yeah , so this jack's typing bear type and type card yeah again , maybe I mentioned earlier that I like , uh , a monkey type is the one from instagram so yeah , monkey type .

Speaker 1 51:11

I annotated them with this one um and maybe , uh , this , the , maybe , the blazingly fast . They're just referring to how . How much slower would your code do , right ? So this apparently doesn't affect that much , even though I guess normally you wouldn't run the right typer . Maybe one asterisk that I wanted to add . I really like typings , but I also know that sometimes it can be very annoying and it can really slow you down , and sometimes adding the type is so complicated because you have an object that is external and then you have to say , okay , like this needs to have a method , this .

Speaker 2 51:49

So to me you also have a lot of , like he said came also came out of the survey . One of the frustrations is like at least these these edge cases where it's a bit less clear , like what is the type , or because of the dynamic , like it's an attribute that's dynamically set , it's harder to inform , know the type up front . So they believe these , these exercises , that where you need to do a lot of more , a lot more work , to have correct type hints , yeah , then you actually get value out of it , yeah , which I think if you draw parallels with the javascript typescripting , I think it's also a big complaint from the typescript community .

Speaker 1 52:19

Right , like sometimes you spend so much time to just say , like this is something , this , but sometimes it's that . But actually this year is this and python is very dynamic , so , like you can even create classes dynamically , you can have it's like . It can be , uh , it can be tricky . It can be tricky , um , do you use types , by the way ? I do , yeah , but do you actually do static type checking or you just add types ?

Speaker 2 52:42

I , uh , these days , if I would set up a new project , I would do yeah , do static type checking . Or you just add types . I . Uh , these days , if I would set up a new project , I would do yeah , yeah , static type checking . Yeah , recently , but I still use my pipe , to be honest yeah , but how do you use it ?

Speaker 1 52:55

do you use it as an extension or do you just use it as a in my ci ?

Speaker 2 52:59

yeah , I use it and um , it's actually not that long ago . That was still . That was comparing my pi and pyrite , and I think this general consensus and that's what you see in the service as well . It's like my pi is there , we know what it is , pyrite we're not sure if , like , how is the ? How long will this exist ? How is this not not new ? But yeah , I mean , that's the discussion that you have for everything . I think the big difference with this specific space is that you have one very big mature player , which is MyPy which makes it a bit of an odd space , I guess .

Speaker 1 53:34

Yeah , but even like the MyPy . So we saw PyWrite as part of the Microsoft org . Mypy is part of the Python , actually , but it's Python , or it should be Python org . No , I think it's just Python . Yeah , I can share this time instead , and I think a lot of the things from MyPy are also a bit intertwined with the type hint specifications from Python . So you see , here this is the Python . See , python is the most popular version , like interpretive Python , and you see MyPy here . So I also feel like one kind of and I guess , because Guido also I mean , I'm saying this a lot , but maybe people should check , but because Guido also worked on MyPy , it also carried a lot of the design choices around what type specification Python should go and all these things , right . So , yeah , a lot of weight , a lot of weight there . What else , what else do we have have ?

Speaker 2 54:24

maybe how much time do we have as ?

Speaker 1 54:26

well , okay , maybe a few more things change a bit the subject to our misc corner . Um , if you want to be fancy and then you have a doom gallery experience it's really cool . Enlighten me , bart , educate . Educate me . What is this ?

Speaker 2 54:45

So I think everybody knows the game Doom , which was released in 91-ish . I want to say I'm not 100% sure . Oh no , it actually says on the website 1993 . It's not far off , huh ? Not far off , no , and over the years you've had this game remade and a lot of different engines . You can run it in JavaScript , you can run it everywhere and this is the gallery experience .

Speaker 2 55:11

Okay , so if you press play , instead of a gun , you're going to hold a glass of wine . Go to new game and you're in an art gallery and you have a glass of wine and uh , you can walk around a bit . You can , uh , you can uh appreciate the , the paintings that are there . There's also nice statues , nice , instead of uh clicking your mouse and firing , you can have a have a .

Speaker 1 55:39

Have a any throw going , or what ? No , you drink . Oh okay , I'm fine , I want to enjoy the the art , appreciate the art .

Speaker 2 55:49

Yeah , this is it . So if , if this evening , like you want to be like really fancy , okay just go appreciate the art . Have a glass of wine , okay , enjoy nice . Um , oh , look , there's statues and all the everything yeah , really cool , put on the show notes yeah nice artifacts here you're looking at , and then you have very historical and you have the thing here what is cheese , percent cheese ?

Speaker 1 56:11

you need to find some cheese , I need to find cheese yes goes well with the wine oh , okay , and if I keep drinking the drink , there's a . So maybe for people listening . Ah , so I have an amount of drinks as well . I can take 46 sips and you need to go to the bar . Okay , really cool . It's really cool how these things nowadays is just like on your browser , right , and you hear the music . Yeah , actually , yeah , maybe you can put a bit beautiful .

Speaker 2 56:36

I'm gonna try to put it , this is beautiful .

Speaker 1 56:38

I'm gonna try to put a bit louder for people to appreciate as well . I feel like we're having a classy moment right now , yeah , but I don't think we've ever been this classy appreciate the arts it's a chopin . Wow , like a nice wine .

Speaker 2 56:50

This is wow the only thing we're still missing , but it's like a bit of cheese , but the people will find it that's where the dutch there's always cheese in the gallery .

Speaker 1 56:59

There's always cheese in the gallery . Very fancy , okay . It would be cool if they had also mirrors , you know , and then yourself like dressed up , you know , it's cool .

Speaker 2 57:07

This is really cool thanks for sharing the gallery experience by filipo miozzi and liam stone okay , very , very , very cool .

Speaker 1 57:19

maybe , um , we were appreciating the music , right , the very classical music , but there was also some news on the . There was also some news on the . I heard rumors .

Speaker 2 57:30

Yeah , maybe I need to share this again .

Speaker 1 57:33

Oh yeah , okay , no , you know Suno . Right , we played with Suno before .

Speaker 2 57:41

We played with Suno . Suno is a Gen AI music generator right . Yes , so played with Suno as soon as Genai music generator right .

Speaker 1 57:45

Yes , so , and actually this is not as new , this is November 19th 2024 . We're not seeing this yeah yeah , sorry , sorry , sorry , sorry , my bad , my bad , my bad . Oh , but maybe it's frozen the screen . Okay , V4 is here . V4 is here , yes , so V4 is here . Yes , so what's um ?

Speaker 2 58:04

v4 is basically at the new iteration of you know , I think when we looked at it , v2 was just released when we really we discussed it .

Speaker 1 58:09

Yeah , uh , and v2 was really good already , right , um , but now they are , basically I just came to do it , right , like they have covers , personas , the audio sharper , they also have cover art , right , and I was like how good is it ? Right , it's hard to . So you need to try it out , okay . So , um , and maybe I need to now to put the music a bit lower because , uh , when we tried this before the recording , it was a bit too loud . So let's see . But let's see , maybe I have to turn it up again . Check this tab instead . This is my personal thing collapse , this . And you have here this song , bart the data dynamo . I don't know what it is .

Speaker 2 58:47

I'm very curious actually what was your prompt , emily ?

Speaker 1 58:50

oh , can you hear ? Oh , yes , that's you actually here . It comes with the lyrics as well heartbeats pounding through the rain .

Speaker 2 59:11

Look at this crazy , how clear the thing is do not scroll down , this is you know , with tulips around and everything that's a good choice , so this is the how much ?

Speaker 1 59:53

work did you do to get this ? I just did like 30 seconds so I can actually show the prompt here . Bart is a Dutchman .

Speaker 2 59:59

Bart is a Dutchman passion , and then , yeah , I just put basically your bio from the data topics and then I just put Bart's a Dutchman .

Speaker 1 1:00:02

Maybe we need to pause the Bart is a Dutchman passion . And then , yeah , I just put basically your bio from the data topics and then I just put can you create a ? Can you write a upbeat song about Bart ? Nice , and so it's as simple as that , or you get this . Simple as that . See 200 characters max . You get the you can actually and then they created a three minutes and a four minutes version of it and I can make it public as well , so everyone can enjoy .

Speaker 2 1:00:29

Yay , yeah , wondering what this will do to the music industry yeah , right , well , I think we touched a bit upon that uh , I think this is because it's a bit the same as to make the parallel with boltnew , like yeah , it's something like well , minimal effort , you have something , but at the same time like there's like you , you , you consume these things differently right , like , like with bolt , you make an application and you a user wants to use an application , yeah , but here you want to appreciate music .

Speaker 2 1:00:54

I think like , yeah , it's a different , like the person behind the music is more important to to appreciate . I don't know I think so .

Speaker 1 1:01:02

I think for creators , I think it could be interesting , because most of the money they make is from performing right , because there wasn't an artist that said I don't care .

Speaker 1 1:01:10

Like this is ai , generated music is great because they'll write my songs and I'll just sing and make money yeah but at the same time , I also and I I don't know if we talked about this or in the podcast or outside the podcast I feel feel

AI in Music and Terminal Emulators

Speaker 1 1:01:24

like music . There's a bit of the human , like I don't know If you hear a song about achieving something or a song about heartbreak . I feel like there's a bit about relating to the person , like you know , like the question is , I guess , do you know it's AI or not ? That's the thing If you don't know , like there's's the thing , if you don't know .

Speaker 2 1:01:44

Like there's a like if you build a mobile application with Bolt , yeah , and the user knows AI was used to create it , they're not really gonna care , no , but if it's but with music you might care , but I think that's because you feel a bit cheated , right .

Speaker 1 1:01:57

Yeah , you feel a bit of you connect through the singer or the writer , through the song , right , and I feel like if it's ai generated , you feel a bit cheated in that sense , but it's a bit the same , like to these days , like ghostwriters yeah , how transparent .

Speaker 2 1:02:12

Is that ?

Speaker 1 1:02:13

that's sure probably not for a lot of cases , that's true but I still feel like that would even take a another step , because I feel like at least a ghostwriter is a person , right like you're relating to humans yeah , that's true , you know , and I feel like to relate to a machine . I feel like it's a bit but you as a Swifty as a Swifty . Yeah , if like a .

Speaker 2 1:02:30

Taylor Swift releases a new number . She's dead to me . I generate it no , no , even not AI generate . But if it's very transparent that she did not write it , it gives a different notation . Right , it gives a different .

Speaker 1 1:02:43

But I also feel like , for example , if it's about emotions , like it's less authentic yes , yes , but I think , like taylor swift , I think one of the reasons why she's very popular is because she writes about her life as well and actually , like you , do correlate stuff you see on the news with this , with this , with this , with this , like a lot of their fans are like saying , ah , this is about that period of her life or about this or about that . So I feel like becomes more real and I think that's part of her success , because there are other really good singers , but you know that they don't write all their songs right I'm not gonna go in there , but I do think it's like this influence yeah , right um , but you know it's like that .

Speaker 1 1:03:18

There's a brazilian saying that what the what the eyes don't see , the heart cannot feel . So it's a bit better like if someone uses this , but they can , they can get away with it .

Speaker 2 1:03:27

Then what's the yeah , it's interesting to see what it will bring , indeed , or destroy , or destroy .

Speaker 1 1:03:33

But I think , yeah , let's see , you know , life is ever ever moving you know , it's like , uh , it's like , what's that ? It's like , uh , eraclitus , I think he had this . That's , uh , the quote . You know , like a man doesn't bathe himself twice in the same river because the man is not the same in the water , the river is not the same either . Oh wow , that is deep .

Speaker 2 1:03:48

Yeah , you know . You know that you haven't heard of it .

Speaker 1 1:03:50

No , Let me check , let me just see if I'm making it up . No , yeah , heraclit , no man , yeah , yeah , it's true , something like that . I'm paraphrasing a bit , but life is ever , ever changing , you know , and we need to kind of roll with it . Whether it's ai or whether it's this , let's just uh , and that's the message I want to bring 2025 , but let us still keep baiting right , yes , all right , and I think that's it for today . Anything else you wanted to , uh , let's find these words , anything else uh , just that .

Speaker 2 1:04:23

Uh , I'm like everybody switched to ghosty for their uh yes , I said I had it there as well .

Speaker 1 1:04:28

Uh , maybe I'll also just put ghosty here , because I thought that there were . Have you seen the website ?

Speaker 2 1:04:32

yeah , yeah , it's cool , that's really cool . Animation oh shit . Um , I think for people that they're a bit out of out of the loop , like uh ghosty or ghost tty is a new uh terminal emulator . Yes , to be uh completely correct as an emulator , but I think most of the time people just call it a terminal . It's made by a guy for which I forgot the name , but he was one of the . He was , I think , the cto of hashicorp ah , he was , he was dead .

Speaker 1 1:05:01

I knew he was working for hashicorp , but I didn't think he was cto um forgot his name .

Speaker 2 1:05:05

Just big big uh guy in silicon valley um created now ghosty is it ?

Speaker 2 1:05:11

him . There have been a lot of rumors on this , a lot of hype on this . In 2024 , I think the he had a beta from beginning of 2024 somewhere , with a limited set of users . I'm always a little bit like what is a new terminal going to bring me . But I switched to Ghosty . I came from Western , western W-E-Z and Ghosty is nice and I don't have any like if you go to the website , there are a lot of objective reasons why ghost is good , like speed and but you don't care , right like it's like like , like , using the , using the more the the native components to build uh applications , let's say cross-platform .

Speaker 2 1:05:56

Yeah , use the native , which west , for the western , for example , does not do so . You have a terminal window and you see it's not on OS X , it's built on an old frame , but Ghost is nice and I don't have any objective reasons to switch to anything else than even just the default yeah terminalapp . Yeah , exactly I don't have any really good reasons , but I use Ghosty for now . It just works . I also like the biggest argument is speed .

Speaker 1 1:06:25

I never really thought like speed is gonna be the thing , but like you click and it's there yeah , yeah , indeed I feel , but I think for me it was like , uh , linting , it was never really a big thing , but then when they rough came out and they like in russ is fast like oh yeah , can I see the difference ?

Speaker 2 1:06:38

yeah , it's like you go from flaky to rough exactly , exactly , but I have the website here .

Speaker 1 1:06:45

It feels better . Yeah , it feels better , and it feels like you're on the bleeding edge right , like you're not missing out . The website is really cool . They have this like little ghosty ASCII animation and actually this is text .

Speaker 2 1:06:55

Yeah , cool , it's really cool . It's ASCII .

Speaker 1 1:06:58

Really really cool . Um yeah , but I also so my terminal journey . I had terminalapp and it was fine and then I tried warp , but then there are a few things that I felt a bit clunky .

Speaker 2 1:07:09

I don't want the terminal where you need to log in .

Speaker 1 1:07:11

Yeah , indeed , what the fuck indeed and actually now I think they took it out , so I heard it on interview from ghost that they took it out , um , but also there are a few other things that I remember it turned me off a bit . I think also there was some people , some colleagues here at data roots that they said that uh , warp messed up with some commands , that this and this that they couldn't run and they to debug it was crazy difficult . So then I came back to terminal that app . Then we also did a presentation on the ai landscape talks . That terminal , that app , could not render images , um , so then I also downloaded item two , item two .

Speaker 1 1:07:45

What I didn't like is that , like the tab completion or the option backshift to skip a word or something it was like I was so used to it and uh , so I I installed ghosty because I just like , okay , whatever , let's reinstall ghosty . You know , don't make it difficult , don't change my key by indeed . And then actually it works fine . So I'm , uh , so far I'm happy with it . Yeah , me as well . So , and it shows images . And it shows images . Yeah , yeah , yeah . Well , yeah , I mean , you can go to present term , which is uh based on markdown .

Speaker 2 1:08:13

You can have presentations in your terminal exactly if you use a terminal that supports the kitty protocol . You can actually show gifs in your terminal . Yeah , like ghost , like Ghost . Ety supports the .

Speaker 1 1:08:25

KDE protocol . So it's like a markdown presentation on the terminal . Really cool , written in Rust . Ghost is written in Zig , so that's why it's probably fast as well . Yeah , and this I have a present term here which we used in the last presentation we did yeah , really cool stuff . And yeah , that's a wrap , isn't it ? That's a wrap , all right , thank you all . You have taste in a way that's meaningful to software people .

Speaker 2 1:08:55

Hello , I'm Bill Gates . I would recommend TypeScript . Yeah , it writes a lot of code for me and usually it's slightly wrong . I'm reminded it's a bust here , Rust .

Speaker 1 1:09:12

This almost makes me happy that I didn't become a supermodel .

Speaker 2 1:09:16

Huber and Netties Boy . I'm sorry guys , I don't know what's going on .

Speaker 1 1:09:22

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today about large neural networks . It's really an honor to be here Rust Rust Data topics .

Speaker 2 1:09:28

Welcome to the data . Welcome to the data topics podcast , ciao , ciao .